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Issue #578.5

Mini-Issue #578.5
February 4, 2011

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-Here we go with a few interviews conducted recently by Ms. Stephanie. This time around we have some photos at the Yahoo! Groups site to go with a couple of the interviews. To take a look check out the “PHILM” area in the Files section, and the “Immortal Dominion” album in the Photos section. – Tim

by Stephanie Davison (Zatanna7@comcast.net)

-Interview w/ Gerry Nestler (PHILM)
conducted via e-mail December 16, 2010 & January 20, 2011

I had the privilege of getting to interview Gerry Nestler of PHILM. For those of you that don’t know, PHILM is a side-project band for Slayer drummer Dave Lombardo. Let’s chat with Gerry to find out everything you want to know about PHILM!

DETRITUS: Why the name PHILM? Is that significant somehow?

GERRY NESTLER: PHILM may be referred to the astral film surrounding us as beings, or the film that separates us from the next dimension.

D: What made you decide to start PHILM?

GN: Dave [Lombardo, drums] and myself wanted to collaborate and create new music.

D: How do you all know each other?

GN: Dave and me started working together in 1995 after the two of us returned home from various European tours. Pancho [Tomaselli, bass] later had joined the band in early 2010 after previously meeting Dave at one of his drum clinics.

D: You describe your sound as incorporating “jazz, ambient, hardcore punk, experimental, and funk.” What made you decide to go in this direction?

GN: I don’t know if I would describe it quite as that — the direction can be considered undescribable, aside from a channeled sound. People can take from it what they want.

D: Gerry you have said regarding the band, “The band’s sound is channeled through the many different influences of drum and bass, expressionism, and underground, that ranges via ancient and indigenous to street.” Can you explain what you mean by expressionism in your music?

GN: Expressionism refers to the early twentieth century artists. Particularily in Germany.

D: Pancho described the band’s sound as “novo punk.” Tell me more about why you would describe it that way?

GN: I don’t know if I would, but I think he means that there is a punk but there is an element of playing that is related to groups like Black Flag, The Germs, or stuff like that.

D: I see that you have already played some live shows. Tell me what a typical PHILM performance is like.

GN: It’s always different, yet work off the same grid. It’s usually always in the moment, of course. It’s more based on connection than anything else.

D; Can we expect a full length album in the future?

GN: Most definitely! Our individual schedules are quite hectic, but we have been focused on writing, recording and mixing new material while we are all together. You can expect to see older songs on iTunes in the near future, as well as a debut album.

D: Are you planning to go on tour more anytime soon?

GN: Yes, we love performing live for our fans! We hope to have a tour by the summer.

D: You say you want to bring back the power of the trio. Why do you feel that is important?

GN: I think we already did bring back the power of the trio but I don’t think it ever went away. PHILM just works perfectly with the three of us. There is more space for each of us in a trio situation, which allows more freedom of expression.

D: What has the song writing process been like for PHILM? What does each member contribute?

GN: In the past, the music was created by Dave and myself. I write all the lyrics. Now with Pancho in the band we are looking forward to creating with him as well. I build the music off Dave’s playing. Pancho has an excellent mind for color and progression.

D: Are there any bands that PHILM would love to share the stage with?

GN: That’s a secret and I don’t want to jinx it!!

D: What has been the most memorable event while performing with PHILM?

GN: We have shared the stage with many great artists. We recently performed with Kerry King of Slayer and that was very well received by the crowd, obviously! Dave Grohl performed with us at Dimebash, and that was amazing. Mike Inez from Alice In Chains also performed recently on stage with us.

D: Any final words for our readers?

GN: Thank you for your continued support! Check out our Facebook for updates on music and tour dates!

D: Thanks so much, Gerry!

Relevant links:


by Stephanie Davison (Zatanna7@comcast.net)

-Interview w/ Ana Kefr
Week of December 12, 2010

In December, I was invited out to one of my favorite band’s recording studio to interview them and to see the recording process! That band is Ana Kefr, which translates to “I am infidel” in English. They pride themselves on being a band that plays experimental and philosophical metal. Ana Kefr is a band that I have had had the pleasure of working with ever since I reviewed their debut album in 2009. I got to spend two and a half days in the studio, getting to see all the tedious work that goes into the making of an album. It gave me an inside look on what happens behind the scenes as well. Since I got to observe so much, I had a unique opportunity to interview the band. And as far as interviews go, this is an especially long one where you will get to hear from all five of the members of Ana Kefr. First up, is Kyle, guitarist and songwriter, who has this to say about the new band members and new material:

DETRITUS: How has the new lineup affected live shows and the writing process?

KYLE COUGHRAN: The lineup has affected the live shows in a great way by bringing the intensity to a whole new level. Our newer shows have brought out the true sound of VOLUME 1, being that we added bass, a lead guitar and a drummer who is flawless. The writing style hasn’t changed much except that I have grown as a musician, making the music more complex. Each member has contributed equally to the writing process.

D: I know that you write a lot of the music for Ana Kefr. How do you come up with new ideas? Is there something that really inspires your writing?

KC: I think that we all inspire the music to be what it is. When writing new material, Rhiis [Lopez] and I really wanted to make the album bigger than life itself. I feel each part is an expression of ourselves. I’m not inspired by other bands, I feel that’s their music. I write what I would want to hear.

D: How do you think the new material will translate in live shows?

KC: It will rip your f*cking face off.

D: What’s one thing that you hope fans will really notice about the new album?

KC: I hope the fans really notice the improvement compared to VOLUME 1, taking in each aspect of the sound so that their ears are in tune with Ana Kefr even more than before.

D: What is your most memorable moment for writing/performing VOLUME 1?

KC: There are so many but I would have to say our first show with the new guys, and I said to myself then — “this is it.” The key has been placed perfectly, now let the doors open.

D: Thanks, Kyle! Now, let’s talk to Fonzie, the new bassist for Ana Kefr. When you came into Ana Kefr, there had been no bassist. Did that make it more difficult to write the bass pieces for the songs?

ALPHONSO JIMENEZ: I felt a little better coming into it knowing that there wasn’t any bass. I was free to show them my style and what I can bring to the table. If there was bass, I probably would have changed it up a bit anyway.

D: When I was in the studio with you guys, one day you came in wearing your Halloween costume. I was told that you guys dress up often for studio days. How does doing things like that add to the recording experience? I’m sure it makes it more fun!

AJ: Halloween costume? That was casual Friday…. I’m starting to think that I might be the wet blanket. I do not like fun nor do I like these “wacky days.” I wasn’t like this before. I think it started when I spoke out of turn while recording. Rhiis does not allow us to converse with one another. I found out later that my bass wasn’t going to be added to one of our songs… I’m kidding.

D: How much do you rehearse and practice for Ana Kefr?

AJ: Well, before we entered the studio, I would practice for an hour and a half every day. Certain songs got a little more time. You might say I “spoiled” my favorite songs. I would not only work on a better technique, but to make sure these songs were engraved in my memory.

D: Do you use any special techniques or equipment for recording Ana Kefr songs?

AJ: Special techniques? I would move my fingers in butter before recording to make them move a little faster. For this album, which is my first album, I used an upright bass for the first time. Nothing too special, nothing fancy, my bass can stand alone.

D: What are your expectations for the new album?

AJ: Since we put so much into this, the only expectation I have is for change. Change in the way people listen to music. Change in the way people see bands. You don’t have to dress like a f*cking retard to get people’s attention. I know there are great bands out there already doing this, but this album is ours. That means we will be part of this need for change.

D: Thanks, Fonzie! Also new to the band since the band’s inception is Ana Kefr’s drummer, Shane. This is your first album with Ana Kefr. What has your experience been like working with this band?

SHANE DAWSON: It’s been extraordinary. I have never had this much fun playing music. These guys just make it easy to play music and just get excited for what ideas we come up with.

D: You replaced the previous drummer of Ana Kefr. What do you do differently on the drums than what is heard on the first album?

SD: Well, it’s hard to judge other drummers, but the thing I noticed was that I don’t follow the lead as much as the last drummer. To me, the drums should be the lead and should be the heartbeat of the band.

D: Drumming can be very difficult, demanding speed and precision. What was it like recording this album? How long did it take you to record your parts?

SD: Well in total, it took me three days to record my parts and one day to clean my parts. It was a tremendous experience for myself to record my first album. I was glad to go first, since I was so nervous. Drums can be demanding, but if you work hard you find a way to make it easy for you. I’ve been fortunate to have a great group of guys that were very supportive of me to make my job one of the easiest to have.

D: Ana Kefr is an outspoken, atheistic band. What is your take on the message of the band?

SD: I love our message. To me, religion is just a way for people to feel better about themselves. People have their own beliefs and think what they want and worship whatever “god” they choose. But we have our own choice to believe in what we want. Ana Kefr means “I am infidel,” which in Arabic means “free-thinker.” So I think; therefore, I am infidel.

D: What has been the most fun about being in the studio?

SD: The guys. Just hanging out with the group and having fun recording a great album. There is no other band I would rather be in just because of this group of awesome people we have.

D: Thanks, Shane! Now, let’s chat with Brendan, the new guitarist and saxophonist for the band. What are the differences between this album and the new album?

BRENDAN MOORE: Perhaps the biggest difference between this album and the last would be the fact that three out of the five members will be making their debut on this album (myself included). Each new member brings a new style and feel to the music and it puts an interesting twist to the Kefr sound. Individually, we each have a unique musical background as well as our own signature style. Couple that with the unique sound of Ana Kefr and it truly sounds like the band has jumped to the next level. It is also fair to note that we are not afraid to try something new and unusual. We constantly strive to be creative as we set out to make something that people really haven’t heard before within the confines of metal. There isn’t too much that metal, as a whole, hasn’t tried. In fact, if you think of something, chances are a band has already done it. But there are still endless combinations and sounds that have yet to be explored. I think what truly makes the band unique, though, is the combination of the five individuals bringing in their expertise to the melting pot to create what is Ana Kefr.

D: When I was in the studio, I noticed some unconventional instruments. What instruments are you using?

BM: Slide whistle, didgeridoo, triangle, accordion… actually that’s completely false, I didn’t play any of those instruments. I did however play this unusual instrument called a “guitar,” and I also played a saxophone. I played saxophone for my high school band and even a little in college. The drummer (Shane) told the others that I played the sax and they jumped all over that. So now I’m labeled as the lead guitar/saxophone player. I don’t know too many people in metal with that label! It’s also fair to mention that we even use a stand-up bass, and a rattlesnake’s rattle on this album.

D: What ideas are you experimenting with this time around that was not present on VOLUME 1?

BM: I decided to experiment with this crazy idea of actually being on this album for one, (sorry I had to, haha). But other than that, playing the saxophone as mentioned is definitely an experiment, especially in a brutal metal band. Also, I’m using some unique effects in certain parts of our songs to try to create a spooky ambiance. The way we play certain riffs in this album is another component that is unique and experimental to me, in that we are not afraid to step out of the box per se from the conventional understanding of music mechanics and theory. We don’t exactly hold back on odd-time signatures, obscure harmonies and dissonant chords. But at the same time it works and doesn’t sound off or as if we don’t know what we are doing. It actually works out really well.

D: Using as many genre labels as you want to, how would you describe the sound of the new album?

BM: Rather than using a genre sequence to describe our sound, I would say it’s as if a brutal progressive metal band wrote an epic movie film score.

D: Which do you like better — playing the guitar or the saxophone?

BM: The guitar, by far, is the superior instrument. The thing that I really like about the guitar that you can’t really do with any other instrument, other than a piano, is that you can play the instrument by itself with out the accompaniment of anything else. The guitar and the piano are really the only two instruments that can truly be independent. But not only that, the guitar is the one instrument that spans across ALL styles of music, and one thing that I’ve always prided myself on was my ability to play many different styles of music with the guitar. The saxophone is great for jazz, blues, classical music, reggae, and ska but that’s really about the extent of it. The guitar can play all of those styles and so much more. However I am daring to increase the range of the saxophone by now introducing it to the world of metal. I know I’m not the first to do it, but it’s still very fresh and new. Also, the guitar has a nice volume range whereas the saxophone only sounds decent at a level that would wake up the people that live with me when I’m practicing.

D: Do you have a favorite song on the new album?

BM: I’ve bounced back and forth between songs that I felt were our strongest, and I suppose that is a good sign. I really like the song “Monody” a lot because it does have a pretty prominent saxophone section in it. I also really like “Parasites,” “The Blackening,” and “The Collector” (which has become my most recent favorite). Those songs are just absolutely epic. But it’s funny, whenever we finished writing one of these songs they instantly became the favorite because we were all so stoked on them. But now when I hear the songs, I find it really hard to pick out a true favorite since each song has that part or parts in it that just completely take my breath away. It’s safe to say that I’m extremely optimistic about the outcome of this album from a musical standpoint!

D: Thanks, Brendan! Now let us turn our attention to Ana Kefr’s front man, Rhiis. Let’s start off with discussing the album’s amazing artwork. Tell me about the album artwork for the new album. What is the story behind it?

RHIIS LOPEZ: Throughout the time that we began to focus on completing the writing, while I was working through the lyrics, we had various debates and discussions regarding what we should use to visually represent the record. It is a real struggle and challenge sometimes to have five different personalities agree upon the same thing; this same tension is responsible for the final sound of our music, so this balancing act of finding common ground is both a blessing and a headache. We’d discussed working with people we know to make art for the album, but eventually realized that working with strangers is ideal because pure business relationships don’t really allow a whole lot of room for hurt feelings. Either we all love it and agree, or it just isn’t happening. I would research different artists, sometimes based off of liking their work done for other bands, other times throwing out a wide net to see what would surface. I personally appreciate when a band like Pink Floyd, or Tool, work with mostly one artist, like Storm Thorgerson or Alex Gray, respectively. It lends a sense of familiarity to a band’s visual representation and I feel that Ana Kefr’s themes and overall atmospheric elements would be complemented by a sense of visual continuity. I stumbled upon an artist named Bianca Van Der Werf, based in the Netherlands, and was absolutely stunned. She has experience with both painting and photography, and actually physically combines the two arts to create very stark, surreal and beautiful pieces. I introduced my band mates to her art at the same time Bianca and I began corresponding, and from there the pieces fell into place. The piece itself is called “The Watcher.” I personally find plenty of symbolism in it that corresponds with the different symbols and ideas of THE BURIAL TREE. Brendan sees the man in the picture as The Collector himself, which is also very appropriate. Regardless of what it says to you, it is a real work of art and Bianca has been nothing but kind and enthusiastic from the start. It has been a real pleasure working with her and, as stated above, I hope to make this business relationship an ongoing one. I’d like everyone to check out her portfolio, she deserves nothing but huge success.

D: VOLUME 1 was a bit of a concept album. Is THE BURIAL TREE also a concept album? If so, in what ways?

RL: Having hindsight, I’d actually say VOLUME 1 was more of a collection of stand-alone songs that linked together via underlying themes or ideas. THE BURIAL TREE is both a concept album and a collection of stand-alone songs, but the concepts and themes in the new album are significantly stronger and the lyrics themselves are unmistakably quilted together. THE BURIAL TREE is written differently than any other album I know of — it is a conversation. The lyrics read something like a darker, internally violent version of the Socratic Dialogues, or a disciple approaching the Buddha beneath the Bodhi tree, thirsting for enlightenment. The album is heavily philosophical and approaches universally personal human themes, rather than the localized cultural ideas present on VOLUME 1. It is literally endless with philosophical ideas and meanings, I polished, worked and re-worked it for over six months to make it dense with hidden connections, meanings and ideas that only reveal themselves to the listener over time. I find it personally rewarding to constantly take away a fresh perspective on an album every time I listen to it, to always discover something new even through something that isn’t. The album is a cornucopia of thought and, while I was very open about explaining VOLUME 1, I find myself less enthusiastic this time around only because the task of explaining it all is daunting. I tried to write an explanation of every symbol and connection in the album for my band mates and gave up at page 13 — and I wasn’t even done explaining just the significance of the album name. This album is meant for the music-lover to dig into it themselves, for the listener to explore their own personal connections and meanings within it. With this album, as in life itself, there is not one but many answers.

D: Before you began recording your second album, you sent out an update via your mailing list with this message, “Ana Kefr just got ridiculously more kefr. The new brutal material makes the heaviest moment of VOLUME 1 seem tame. The new epic material makes the most epic moment of VOLUME 1 seem bland. The new melodic and emotional material makes the most tragic and beautiful moments of VOLUME 1 seem gray… Conceptually, the album goes deeper, heavier and darker than ever before, dwarfing VOLUME 1 in all aspects.” Now that you are in the studio and are actually recording it, do you feel this assertion is still true?

RL: I feel that the above statement STILL doesn’t capture the new album. I am extremely proud of THE BURIAL TREE.

D: VOLUME 1 was recorded using your own label, and this album is also being recorded without the assistance of a major label. What have been your challenges doing everything yourself? What have been the advantages of not being on a label?

RL: The main challenge of being an independent band would be financial. Unless you’ve been in a serious band that works hard at what they do, it is difficult to fully appreciate and understand just how much work it is to do this. An album alone can cost as much as an automobile to record and release, merchandise like shirts and stickers are not cheap whatsoever. Performing shows involves rehearsal space fees, flier printing costs, rising gas prices, equipment upkeep. Then you have to factor in that, since no one in the industry itself is truly rolling in cash these days, serious musicians typically have to work their asses off in a “normal” job on the side just to fund their true passion. I love the whole process, so I am not complaining. I’d say the biggest headache is watching people steal our music and this isn’t because we are against music-sharing itself but because we pour our paychecks, credit cards and lives into this, and when one thing is stolen then it was literally taken from us and that is more money we’ve invested in the band that we will never see again. We are not a huge label with millions of dollars, we are starving musician types who barely scrape by in order to do what we love and share what we love with others. With being independent comes the advantage of having full control over our music and path. Our successes and failures belong entirely to us, so with our accomplishments we are able to absolutely party in celebration. I think it would be very hard to live with a reality where we *could* have been successful if someone outside the band hadn’t absolutely shat on our career. It is refreshing to take full responsibility; it sure beats being the industry’s jail-cell bitch!

D: At the end of VOLUME 1, there is audio that tells the listener to insert VOLUME 2. But this album is not to be titled VOLUME 2. Tell me why you made this decision.

RL: VOLUME 1 was a beginning, I almost lean towards classifying it as an unofficial demo-turned-album in the scheme of things. THE BURIAL TREE, when you listen to it, is obviously a much more mature offering, musically and lyrically. It is clear that we understand now how the music machine works, and how we want to operate it. I felt for a long time that calling this album VOLUME 2 would have been a disservice, as if it were an honest continuation from VOLUME 1. This album has little, to nothing, to do with VOLUME 1; it is its own individual expression and is very strong. It deserves its own name just as two sons deserve their own names and identities. You don’t call your older son Bob and your youngest son Bob Number 2. THE BURIAL TREE deserves better and more creative than that. Plus, we kind of revel in doing what isn’t expected. Where’s the fun when there’s no surprise?

D: Thanks, Rhiis! It was my absolute pleasure to interview you all again! Best of luck with the new album. From the sound of things, it looks like it is going to be fantastically epic!

Relevant links:

Ana Kefr

Bianca Van Der Werf

by Stephanie Davison (Zatanna7@comcast.net)

-Interview w/ Brian Villers (Immortal Dominion)
conducted via e-mail January, 2011

I recently had the privilege of interviewing Brian Villers (guitars/vocals) of Immortal Dominion. Now for those of you in the dark, Immortal Dominion is a Colorado-based metal band, and on March 22 they will release their latest offering, PRIMORTAL, after a five-year hiatus. Let’s hear what Brian has to say about the new album, the recording process, and the band’s plans for the future!

DETRITUS: What was it like working with Sterling Winfield (producer of such acts like Hellyeah, Pantera, and Mercyful Fate)?

BRIAN VILLERS: It was great, he is a true professional and takes his craft very seriously. He kept telling me he felt a responsibility to give us what we want on the album, but also had a responsibility to give the listener something they could understand and enjoy. So he dug in and started helping us with song structure, and lyrics. It really made us step our game up.

D: Brian, you were quoted as saying, “I think the current metal scene has come around full circle, with guitar solos and great drumming being prevalent again. And our new sound fits in with that perfectly.” So, with that being said, are you trying to conform to what is popular now in metal?

BV: I would say we did not consciously try to conform to it. But, as we have acquired a very talented drummer and new lead guitarist in Casey [Glass] and Louie [Micciullo], [respectively,] they brought a more technical style and sound with them. Coincidentally, that style is popular again right now.

D: Over the years, you have released 1996’s BIRTH EP, 1998’s ENDURE, and 2006’s AWAKENING: THE REVELATION. How is your current release, PRIMORTAL different from your previous albums?

BV: PRIMORTAL is a much more focused effort. While the past albums were more raw. This album is much more methodical, with people who have been successful in the music business helping us step up to a more professional level of both songwriting, and production.

D: It sounds like you all had a great time in the studio recording this. Tell me what was one of the most memorable moments of the recording process?

BV: One memory I have was not even in the studio. The first night our producer Sterling flew in we went to a local bar that had a juke box. On the juke box was a sign written in marker that said “No heavy metal — IT WILL BE SKIPPED!” We kept offering the waitress money to let us play Slayer but she was scared of being fired. So we stole the sign and put it up in the studio right over the sound board for the entire recording. The entire process was a cool mixture of serious professionalism mixed with goofing around. It kept things light during the stressful times.

D: When asked to describe the band’s sound, bassist Bryan “Ed” Schmidt said, “Somewhere between Cannibal Corpse… and Elton John!” Do you agree with this? And can you shed a little more light on why your band sounds that way?

BV: I think Ed is alluding to our diversity. We have a very wide range of influences. I remember a reviewer years ago describing us as “a mix between Pantera and Morbid Angel if you throw in a sprinkle of Bush.”

D: Louis Micciullo said of these songs, “I like ‘U’ and ‘Hindsight’ because they show our versatility and have a soundtrack-like quality to them.” Did you write songs with the intention of giving them “soundtrack-like quality” or did they just turn out that way?

BV: Definitely had no thought of that during the writing process. But, with our last album landing five songs in the indie film “Teeth,” and the exposure that we got from it, being on more soundtracks is something we would love to do.

D: Congrats! How did “Teeth” come about?

BV: We actually landed five songs on the film. Our distro guy here in Colorado, Morris Beegle, had a band with a song on the soundtrack, but they broke up and started arguing about song rights or something. So Morris sent in 15 other bands he had, and they chose us. Then they said they wanted five songs instead of one. We had no idea it would be as successful as it was.

D: Do you have any favorite songs on the album? If so, which one(s) and why?

BV: I really like the song “Become Wise.” Mostly just the feeling the song has behind it, especially when it settles into the groove. I also think it has one of the catchiest choruses we have ever written.

D: Explain to me the writing process. Who writes the lyrics? Who writes the instruments? Or does everyone do a little of each?

BV: On PRIMORTAL, I wrote most of the lyrics probably 80%, and Ray [Smith] our lead singer wrote most of the music. The rest of it we try to get creative and collaborate all bringing lyrics and riffs to the table.

D: It’s been five years since your last album. Why the long wait?

BV: A variety of reasons. We have had the same four band members for over 10 years, and through a series of events we have brought in a new drummer, and lead guitarist. Ray has put down the guitar, on stage only, to focus on his vocals. Then before we could finish the album, Sterling had to go record the new Hellyeah album, which took longer than they planned. But we are now back, and ready show the world what we can do.

D: Are you planning a tour for the release of PRIMORTAL?

BV: We are in talks with some of the summer fests, nothing confirmed yet, but some exciting possibilities.

D: Do you have any bands or musicians that really influence your sound?

BV: I would say between Ray and I you could point to Ty Tabor, Dimebag, Zakk Wylde, Tony Iommi and the bands they were in as a start. Of course we all listen to tons of different kinds of music I am sure they all influence our songwriting.

D: In one sentence describe PRIMORTAL.

BV: Diverse and powerful metal, with songs that stick in your head.

D: How did everyone in Immortal Dominion know each other? How did the band form?

BV: Ray and I were roommates out of high school, and starting writing songs before we even started this band. Louie and Ed were in another local band we played a lot of shows with and have been friends for over a decade. As far as our new drummer Casey, we saw videos on YouTube of him competing (and winning) in the Guitar Center Drum Off here locally and knew he had the exact sound we needed to do this right.

D: What do hope to achieve in the future with Immortal Dominion? Is there any tour you’ve been dying to play or any band you’d love to share the stage with?

BV: Of course we want to tour the world, and drink champagne out of our boots, in a hot tub, that is in the back of our solid gold limo! Would like to be on something like the Mayhem Fest, and tour with a bunch of great bands all at once.

D: Any final comments?

BV: Just want to encourage your readers to go to our website, MySpace, or Facebook, or anywhere they check out music. Just Google us dammit! From there I think our new music will speak for itself, and thanks to you.

Relevant links:

Immortal Dominion

*** OUT ***

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